2. This video will cover everything that you need to know about using building properly in Crusader Kings 3. As you can see, Temples make 0. As opposed to many games, CK3's Health stat is less of a measure of life and more of a measure for how close one is to death. CK3 Wiki Active Wikis. With this Elder Scrolls total conversion mod, Crusader Kings 3 becomes a Tamriel dynasty simulator. Holding Manager Lite has less building management capabilities and is better to be used with other building mods. Per the usual, I’ll preface this by saying that the court scene is a work in progress, the UI of the court scene is a work in progress, and the art generally is work in progress; we also have some missing animations and camera. I Googled it and the functionality to replace buildings or holding types is not a thing. Crusader Kings is a historical grand strategy / RPG game series for PC, Mac, Linux, PlayStation 5 & Xbox Series X|S developed & published by Paradox Development Studio. To construct new Holdings, you have to upgrade to Feudal or Clan, which can take a while- especially if you culture-blob in a low-tech zone. [CK3] So, I bred (for lack of a better word) the wives of the king. Castles and Temples all have the exact same ratio on Levies and Gold, with 0. CK2 raised levies at every holding and had to be grouped manually (or semi-automatically with the rally point update). County capitals allow the construction of an additional building and have +1 Fort Level. Crusader Kings 3 divides its map into several layers: empires, kingdoms, duchies, counties, and baronies. VIET & RICE mods have been updated to CK3 Patch 1. Camel culture retinues, Islam. Been looking for a guide for it. (and CK3): Make Major rivers full on sea zones. Im probably missing a few things but i think thats the gist of it for the most part. Can be upgraded 3 times. It is much worse to invest in vassals buildings in CK3 compared to CK2. Born to Breed: House of the Prophets - my ongoing but erratically updated CK3 AAR; The Sverker Diaries, part twenty-six, has been published. Best duchy to put your capital in? swilhelm73. Level 1 buildings cost 150 Gold. If you start as tribal and wishes to convert to feudal as quickly as possible, you can be the vassal of larger kingdom and take decision "adopt feudal ways through liege". Basic farms give 0. Duke -> +2 Domain Limit. I guess we'd just need to make some custom way of triggering it in a fashion that makes sense within the context. Holding Essex & Kent or Hwicce is way better than just Mercia. Holdings are the castle, city, or temples within a county however for 95% of counties you only get to have 1 castle as your holding per county. In my current game as Emperor of Hispania & Francia, I had a few dukes who would go all Grand Duke on me & end up conquering their way to holding like 3-4 duchy titles. But the former gives you an additional 20 cities paying taxes and increasing development, with the same number of castle and 5 additional temple holdings. Crusader Kings is a historical grand strategy / RPG game series for PC, Mac, Linux, PlayStation 5 & Xbox Series X|S developed & published by Paradox Development Studio. The guilds produce research and therefore better quality in everything. Emperor -> +4 Domain Limit. In CK3, in my first current game, I left the game rules on default, starting on 867, except that I enabled Ironman, which is the only way to play for me. 2. it makes ‘wise man/mystic/miracle worker’ virtuous traits. IanReSc Major. Last edited by Shiny49 ; Feb 5, 2021 @ 8:08am. 1066: Seljuk – Prebuilt. Given that he mentions "cities on the coast" in CK2, I think he means actual holdings. IIRC specifically, you got one bonus for the capital county and then another in the capital duchy. Each jurisdiction requires a Tax Collector. Each duchy will lose the opinion of your vassals by 15. 18 votes, 10 comments. CK3 duchy buildings tier list: 1. Hagia Sophia & All Cathedrals Enabled For All Christians Less Old Wives - AI Men Marry Younger Fertile Women Advanced Cheat Menu Restore Carolingian Borders Fix More Babies For Counts. Crusader Kings is a historical grand strategy / RPG game series for PC, Mac, Linux, PlayStation 5 & Xbox Series X|S developed & published by Paradox Development Studio. With 14 holdings slots, many of them already built up in both 867 and 1066, Wessex has an above average amount of. 67 years for break even) Given that you can only build those. Duchy of Albany has four counties, sixteen holdings (nine coastal), the largest county, Gowrie. The level 7 farm upgrade costs 600 g for 0. What are the Best Succession Laws to Choose in Crusader Kings 3. Essex is the standard best choice, and Hwicce is nice. Some counties have special building slits, some have a gold mine etc. Decadence isn't hard to manage. ( you can only construct 1. Ekeboy • 1 yr. Welcome to the beginner's guide for Crusader Kings III, a grand strategy game where you lead your medieval dynasty through warfare, diplomacy and intrigue on a path to glory. Farmlands. Cordoba is a relatively small county compared to others on this list (4 holding slots), but it has a really good special building and farmlands (+20% development growth and the best money-making buildings. And if you are stronger than the opponent, you use your army to chase down his, or screen the siege force, while a small soldier force guard the siege behind. Zoom in on the map until the ruler’s individual holdings are visible. In my games, I search for the best piece of land with the most open slots, grab it, make it. Cities give you monry and castles you hold directly and produce levies. Martin’s fantasy series and Crusader Kings 3 were made for each other and the developers of this mod have gone above and beyond with the details of this mod, which is simply called A Game of Thrones or AGOT, for short. No, personally holding cities provides no benefit, and there’s no way to change that currently. Each title has a rank, a unique coat of arms, and a color on map. “Domain: XX%” is the total of all the bonuses from your buildings. If you intend to hold it yourself, then you don't really have. They will then pay their taxes to you as usual but slightly more. I’d say Kent is the best choice as the secondary duchy because you get overflow dev from London and the holy site is a huge money maker (especially when/if you form your own religion)Unlocked building slots are not lost if the county's culture is changed to one that has fewer building slots innovations. Crusader Kings 3 is a game that really cares about its historical accuracy. The sooner things pay back, the better. Cue the theme song! George R. Holy Order. If you play in Britain, then you should, obviously, choose Mercia (9 counties). The only way to do this is to manually edit the save file, it's a pretty basic, missing function. Anybody figure out the best holding to build in empty county slots? In CK2 it was cities hands-down for the tax income, but here in CK3 my mayors all make me <0. If you want to go the Byzantine route but start. Here are some places to target playing 'tall' (with the stewardship & perks for that many holdings). 418K subscribers in the CrusaderKings community. While Levies operate the same way as the Feudal peasant armies, the Tribal rulers instead use Prestige to create Men-at-Arms Regiments. Thank you! 6. So building cities and temples is better. Report. 1 gold per month and exactly 7 troops each. Best Duchy would probably be Ferghana, with 26 baronies in 5 counties. I don't have the game and don't fully understand the new map and holding system. This isn't advice, but an observation as I'm new and not that great at the game. Capua - Farmlands and a general university slot in Napoli. It’s in their best interest to keep as much power as possible. Armed Pilgrimages / Struggle and Submission (Armed Pilgrimages) -20% Holy War Piety Cost (Struggle and Submission) +50% Piety and Devotion from Holy Wars +25% County Conversion Speed per owned Holy Site if no Head of FaithThe unofficially titled 'North Korea strategy' has returned for Crusader Kings 3, and it lets you completely dominate the world if pulled off correctly. Convert to a faith with Lay Clergy. You cant build in it because the game encourages you to move forward with feudal/to make feudal your government type. Regarding gold: There isn't actually much difference in gold-income between castles and cities, since a lot of the income is based on terrain-buildings, and not holding type. Level 1 buildings cost 150 Gold; Level 2 buildings cost. Farmlands are without a doubt the true kings of CK3. Also note that in CK3 domain (demense) isn't calculated per county, but per holding. Manor Houses The Lords and Ladies of the manor employ hundreds of peasants to till their fields and tend to their livestock. 3 are farmlands, the best terrain for money and development, Aachen has the palace and Cologne the cathedral. 5 and 4. That being said, what are the best duchies in this game? In CK2 my favorites were Flanders in Western Europe, Sicily in the Mediterranean, Jibal and Baghdad in Middle East. However, getting to the higher ranks will also allow you to gradually hold more. Similar style as in Councillor's Traits. Transoxiana - Turan. They give -25 opinion for that. . Both of these options fill your domain limit. As you mentioned, Cities are the best for development. Report. 07. . Craven characters are more easily intimidated by your Dread score. One aspect of this is raiding, something most commonly associated with the Vikings. This is only based on holdings - we need to take anothe. Temples give pretty good levies and money, so if you want a lot of income build those (if you can hold them). Conquered basicly the whole kingdome of hungary in the starting war, but now i'm not able to build in most of my holdings as they are castle holdings and I'm tribal (and want to stay tribal for fun). This mod has been rendered obsolete with the Tours & Tournaments patch, which introduced a very similar button to sell artifacts in vanilla! The mod will remain on the Steam Workshop to be used for playing CK3 version 1. The best trinket artifact in CK3 has to be the Navaratna, which is an Adventure artifact available in India. 2. The best duchies to hold on the Italian peninsula are: Tuscany - Farmlands in Firenze and a unique university slot in Siena. Here are my top choices (in no particular ranking):. Viola you have primogeniture with a few extra steps. Bod Chen Po - As a member of the Pugyel Dynasty, re-create the Empire of Tibet. Lemme try it out in Nice. If there is a castle holding in the county, you need to be the holder of that title. Ty in advance. Often,. Engage in courtly intrigue, dynastic struggles, and holy warfare in mediæval Europe, Africa, the Middle East, India, the steppes and Tibet. Probably skip if you're a roleplayer who doesn't want meta spoiled. 55 Monthly tax +1% Holding Taxes — +2% Light Cavalry Toughness 4 Wellsprings 250. ago The biggest counties in the game, such as Madurai, have 7 baronies each, while the smallest, such as the Isle of Man, have only one. dionysus71319 Jun 1 @ 12:34pm. Level 2 buildings cost 250 Gold. Each Barony in the game only has 1 Special Building. I use "chief" because Oyo is a tribal realm in CK3, not the feudal one many European kingdoms default to. If you click on King Philippe’s portrait, you’ll see that he currently has 4/5 holdings. They mainly focus on visuals and events, with minor mechanics like the struggle or the new travel mechanic. Crusader Kings. 10 best counties in CK3 to move your realm capital. Farmland is by far the best for money. I usually rule Britannia from Gowrie, because I usually start in Scotland. Stewardship is the third out of five different Lifestyle focuses that you can pick for your character in Crusader Kings 3. Law legacy is mostly focused on gold, control, and stewardship lifestyle. The level 7 farm upgrade costs 600 g for 0. Level 3 buildings cost 340 Gold and a level 2 holding. Thus, a 10% increase really isn't anything too game changing. Neither worked. Just started playing as the first Capet (robertine) and want to take France. Get another holding that is tribal or reform your government. Level Holding effects County effects Realm effects Stationed regiments bonus Description Bloomeries +4% Holding Taxes +10% Levy Reinforcement Rate +1% Knight Effectiveness +10% Damage : Throughout the countryside, smoke rises from the bloomeries, simple structures with walls made of heat resistant clay and stones, where a. Engage in courtly intrigue, dynastic struggles, and holy warfare in mediæval Europe, Africa, the Middle East, India, the steppes and Tibet. Crusader Kings is a historical grand strategy / RPG game series for PC, Mac, Linux, PlayStation 5 & Xbox Series X|S developed & published by Paradox Development Studio. Might be more willing with it being easier to get a new holding up to speed, but I suspect deep short-term penalties for doing so to dissuade players from. Court positions. So a T3 Temple = 1. Finnmark for maximum attrition as they try to march on your capital. META GEOPOLITICS for dummies. There are three types of holdings: Baronies: Focus on troops. +2 Stewardship. Read The Full Guide: Kings 3 Royal Edition @ Gaming Deals @ - - a Member - is small but freakishly defensible. EDIT: I should add that I've already tried revoking the holding and re-granting it, as well as becoming a vassal to a feudal empire in an attempt to switch to feudal. All have the same holding management features. Best terrain in my opinion in order are: Farmland, plains, marshlands, Hills/forest, dessert, anything else. She has enough resources at her disposal to make for a peaceful. More than two duchies is possible but the opinion malus with your vassals means your realm will be less stable and vassals will be less likely to go along with your requests (such as converting or ending wars). So your vassals buildings do not help you except indirectly by increasing levy or development. The first four give liege opinion boosts, which will make your vassals like you more. Islam fits "boring, but effective". They do, however, count toward your personal domain. Thus, a 10% increase really isn't anything too game changing. 2. Welcome to my Crusader Kings 3 guide for buildings and holdings. Your vassals will start to hate you, levy size will decrease, tax income will decrease, I think county control and opinions can also have events fire to decrease them as well. a mod lower on the list supersedes (overwrites) mods above it (if there is any conflict) a. 3. as a feudal lord i just sit back relax till i can change my succession laws to something better and start expanding whilst keeping my capital county strong build extra holds if there is space and keep my armys better and. Ultimately, the most powerful legacy relates to keeping the bloodline of your family as strong as possible. So castles and temples (if I am in a religion that allows that). If you can get at least 15 prowess knight this means you get 1500 damage for levies and 1650 damage for knight - just for 75 gold and 200 prestige. A full 5/5 stack will result in a net +1 daily siege progress, so double speed, meaning that same holding will now be sieged in 3 months rather than 6. CK3 Money Guide. every time a character goes on a pilgrimage, they have a very high chance to get/upgrade one. Mubarizun - Best heavy infantry in the game. It doesn’t actually prevent you from building new holdings, from my testing it only appears when you can’t build said holding (usually not enough gold or haven’t built a at least one temple/city first)Duchy Buildings offer a unique way to specialize and enhance your realm in CK3. These are the best CK3 mods so far on the Steam Workshop. Playing Tall Guide - Tips, Tricks, and Strategies for Playing Tall in a Duchy or (small) Kingdom in CK3, or How to Conquer the World with 8 Counties CK3 This is a guide and playthrough for playing tall in Crusader Kings 1. One of the fun parts of CivIII was taking an enemy civ that had caused you massive trouble and literally sending them back to the stone age as. I only posted because I've been checking over the course of a couple lifetimes and that has always shown up but maybe I just haven't been checking when I had the gold, which if that's the case, I'm dumb haha. Engage in courtly intrigue, dynastic struggles, and holy warfare in mediæval Europe, Africa, the Middle East, India, the steppes and Tibet. Engage in courtly intrigue, dynastic struggles, and holy warfare in mediæval Europe, Africa, the Middle East, India, the steppes and Tibet. 427. Crusader Kings is a historical grand strategy / RPG game series for PC, Mac, Linux, PlayStation 5 & Xbox Series X|S developed & published by Paradox Development Studio. Finally, the absolute best anythings are anything that reduces maintenance costs. It breaks down each category of combat and attempts to explain how they function. Anyway, the aforementioned “Ledger” tech has already been unlocked. A struggle goes through multiple phases that change 3 months after sufficient Catalysts, actions that push the struggle towards the. Each of these three types have an associated character type; baronies are typically owned by nobles, cities by. It makes sense from a lore. g. Featuring a map that's 2/3 the size of the base game's, the mod. Once the Domain limit is reached, newly controlled holdings will stop providing taxes and levies after a year passes. Temples can have monasteries for increased piety gain. Presuming you don't choose to go the route of building a large number of castle baronies in your counties, but instead try to hold as many counties as possible, what is the best duchy to hold? It seems to me the factors are: 1) The more. King -> +3 Domain Limit. Prisoner Ransom. This style of play was already a thing in the previous version of the game, but has been made even stronger and more viable in CK3, remaining an enduring player favourite well into the lifetime. CK3 which holdings should i build? CK3 Hi CK3-Fans, back in CK2 i used to build only castles within my realm in order to increase my own troops. There are some country's with city/temple holdings as capital, the ruler with their primary title as these country become republic and theoretical ruler, however they can still hold castles. But one of the biggest draws for Paradox's epic. 3. Location: Baghdad 867: Abbasid – Prebuilt. These two laws will make sure that you don’t lose anything and that you will know for sure who gets all of your territories. In CK2, since your steward and martial worked on a county basis, it was best to have a county (5 or 6 slots) maxed out with castle holdings that you personally controlled for the steward and martial stacking bonuses- a single county with 5 castle baronies could easily net you tends of. 9 and up] Created by KeizerHarm. Now you made me curious - let me go look at the files. #1. If you want to hold more than 1 duchy for the duchy building just destroy the extra duchy titles before dying. ago Crusading Against Low Effort Screenshots. Couple main options: 1. Hispania, go for Barcelona coastal counties and then hug the coast until you reach Granada. Once more we can invest money into our holdings and get returns on our investments. Good in the capital county. Pure Heavy Infantry might be good in CK3, but they'll take a lot of losses in a Bannerlord battle against mixed a. Pastoral Lands can be built everywhere except Forests, Taiga, and Wetlands, so getting +1% holding taxes per Pastoral Lands level, +. So far the only one I have found is the county of Madurai, with seven holding slots but no special buildings, so I am. These are our picks for the best Crusader Kings 3 mods: The Fallen Eagle: The Dawn of the Dark Ages. One thing to keep in mind as you do this is your vassals will not appreciate your efforts to consolidate power. Looking at the window that opens on the lower left side of your screen, you'll see that holding's name. Run your game. You can get one for free if you have a great work there. Regarding the other game rules, which non-default ones. Speaking of buildings, you've ignored them the entire guide. Then I add cities (in CK3 you have to have a church holding in the county first), and build one or two of the early econ buildings to spur development growth (if you're min-maxing, this is the number to watch) and give my vassal some income to reinvest in their holding. Engage in courtly intrigue, dynastic struggles, and holy warfare in mediæval Europe, Africa, the Middle East, India, the steppes and Tibet. If it is renown, you should just hold those special building sites more so than not. A faith Catholicism. A Leisure Palace is a good choice for smaller kingdoms, or if your rulers are going to need somewhere to relax. However, it seems that sort of abstraction has gone out the window in CK3. The closest thing you have is the basic farms for 150 g for 0. This building only costs 150 Gold and will give you 0. Holdings are castles, cities, and temples (and tribes). I think it depends on what you need right? Generally though I build stuff that I can hold. Engage in courtly intrigue, dynastic struggles, and holy warfare in mediæval Europe, Africa, the Middle East, India, the steppes and Tibet. [1] For every vassal above the Vassal Limit, -5% is imposed on vassal taxes and vassal levies, up to -95% . Crusader Kings is a historical grand strategy / RPG game series for PC, Mac, Linux, PlayStation 5 & Xbox Series X|S developed & published by Paradox. The other big thing is that you can hold Thrace and probably another super good Duchy (or flexibly hold counties to do things with), because it's just 3 counties. This is directly reflected in the effects of each level: Disparate Tribes (Level 1) Direct Vassal Opinion: +10; Characters cannot be imprisoned. Method 1: Temple as county capital. If you spend 150 gold on a structure that generates 0. Depending on your government type, the ways you would make money in CK3 differ a lot. However in CK3 there appears to be more value in stacking specific holding upgrades to get gold and troop bonuses, rather than *possibly* building new settlements early. 1 gold per month and exactly 7 troops each. 1 Avaricious. Constantinople. 3 GPM and 325 Levy. ago. Oct 31, 2023The majority of buildings come in 8 levels and need the same innovation as the holding level they require. There are three main building types in CK3 and do keep in mind that these buildings take years to complete but they will be worth the wait as they will add lots of. the problem is that you created too many kingdom titles. " They used to be able to just exist when purchased. 2. Last Count, First King - As Duke Nuño of Portucale in 1066, form Portugal. 14. The biggest counties in the game, such as Madurai, have 7 baronies each, while the smallest, such as the Isle of Man, have only one. I was making 219 gold PER MONTH in this game as I demonstrate the power of playing tall in CK3 by investing your gold into all your counties!! I unlocked eve. MikeWhiskey • Scandinavia • 3 yr. In particular, your county control and development are vital for the output of both gold and levies, so it's well worth improving them where you can. This guide will teach you a few ways to make money that doesn't require any special perks from the Lifestyle Focus. When it comes to the best overall Lifestyle Traits in Crusader Kings 3, the fact that gold pretty much rules the game means that the Avaricious. Attention! For the sake of improved compatibility, I decided to revoke the inbuilt compatibility with Ethnicities and Portraits Expanded and Community Flavour Pack. But would like to know the real answer also. Some buildings have additional effects if the county culture has certain. Teije. Camel culture retinues, Islam. 22 -- 4 stars! may be peanuts to some, but i appreciate it. If you want maximum tax income, just hold the top castle in six. Both Sjælland and Jylland are crappy Duchies. This is a basic guide of principles of geopolitics for CK3: where to put your capitals and what counties are the best to hold in your personal domain and develop. it make those ruler able to hold 2 type of holdings. In Crusader Kings 3, raiding is a great way for certain characters to bump up. CK3 Tribal Troops. There are three playable government types in CK3: Feudal. The culture represents the customs and technologies that a character or county uses. 11) of the game. 2. The city I got problems was Pisa, not Siena. So a T3 Temple = 1. 1. Originally posted by CrUsHeR: Each city granted to the order is lost taxes and development. Steam workshop list of the mods and some extras! - - Hey, I generally like a tall playstyle, and in ck2 I loved playing Venice and building so tall that Venezia alone rivaled entire empires in terms of income and troops, so I have been trying to find good counties for building tall in ck3. Male characters are born with a Health stat somewhere between 4. 2. This gives you 10 castles, 10 cities, and 5 temples. Norman Yoke - As Duke William of Normandy in 1066, subjugate England. Uzboy is more dense with 11 baronies, but only has 2 counties. But if I want to grow development I. Blood. . 0 unless otherwise noted. Byzantion, Palermo, Napoli, Salerno and Cagliari are very good counties to hold personally. Keeping your direct holdings in the same duchy/kingdom then allowed you to have as many King/Duke vassals as possible without having any of them being mad at you for having a holding in their Kingdom/Duchy. Move the capital of each county to the temple holding. DagonFishGone. Also to avoid losing counties to partition outside of your primary duchy, you just need to destroy the duchy title. #6. Hover. So you wanna put all your siege in one stack, and fast siege as fast as you can. Although I appreciate the memes on this sub, I'm a guy who usually doesn't go for very wacky playthroughs. The High Chieftess Daurama of Kano is one of the best and most unique rulers in Crusader Kings 3. +15% Holding Taxes. Now your temples are held directly by you. Castles can have walls to defend against sieges. 2. The answer is clearly Reykjavik. Kutna Hora Mine: +3 tax, +10% holding taxes, +5% development, and +10% siege weapon effectiveness bonuses. Then in Crusader Kings 3, players had to choose which improvements go in a limited set of slots. e. Castles help give levies and protect your counties, so if you have strong neighbors and want to guard that county then build a castle. Not to mention +50% levy size and +20% holding taxes. 4 CK3 patch. Siena is a castle and had no problems with it. Castles are best for defense as they make opponents siege multiple castles to siege a county. I have some ideas on how that could look. There is a button that can replace what kind of. Buildings are an excellent source of troops and coins. 5 Monthly Prestige-10% Temple Holding and Buildings Construction Cost +0. CK3 is a dynamic game: it'd be tedious to constantly create new armies as you're expanding, only to lose them when the realm gets partitioned. Kiev is certainly the best duchy in the de jure Russian empire due to the farmland holdings in the capital county but the lack of any special buildings keep it from being particularly impressive. Holding Manager Holding Manager Lite Holding Manager Mini All have the same holding management features. The House of Wisdom. No you cannot destroy or replace entire holdings. Because it gives siege weapon effectiveness +20% to its holder. Building Holding effects County effects Realm effects Religion Description Grand Cathedral +2 Monthly Tax +20% Holding Taxes +20% Monthly Development +0. But would like to know the real answer also. You can only do this to your holdings which are feudal. Towards end game I can take down holdings in 7 days. Nope, they're down to 1 holding. Hey, I generally like a tall playstyle, and in ck2 I loved playing Venice and building so tall that Venezia alone rivaled entire empires in terms of income and troops, so I have been trying to find good counties for building tall in ck3. The duchy of Wessex consists of 4 counties, all with coastal access allowing for the tradeport line of buildings. ago. and a T3 Castle = 1 GPM and 475 Levy. Pick Dutchies that have Counties w/ Special buildings in them w/ the most building slots. The sub religion of Ari also does not have the pacifism tenet like the other buddhist religions. You can find the txt file in C:Program Files (x86)SteamsteamappscommonCrusader Kings. It's obviously an intentional choice, because you can blow up and replace upgrades inside holdings, so adding a line or two of code to convert that ability to also affect the holding itself wouldn't be hard. The higher level upgrades are insane though. Open up slots throughout your realm as a non-tribal ruler. It ranges from -100 to +100, each point added to one side being subtracted at the same time from the other side, e. Raise Vassal Taxes. County capitals allow the construction of an additional building and have +1 Fort Level. Though you probably can avoid having either on your heirs. Welcome to my Crusader Kings 3 guide for buildings and holdings. Level 2 buildings cost 250 Gold. The majority of buildings come in 8 levels and need the same innovation as the holding level they require.